Religion Thread

Hey guys.

I'm too lazy to read through all that since A. I don't feel like arguing over a forum and B. I'm just a lazy person :O

If you actually want a response for me, we can talk about over AIM and stuff. Otherwise...try somethin' else.

I'm Christian, maybe not *devout* but I'm a real honest Christ follower. That's a huge different from "Christian" and actual "Christ follower" You will not believe how many people are Christian without actually having the Lord reside in them. It's insane. Being "Christian" to them is like a label, it's something you do, not something you are.

I'm reminded of Sunday Christians. Oh, I could go on a whole freaking rant about them. They're only Christian on Sunday and for the rest of the week, they act pretty much like atheists - gambling, cussing excessively, all the forty two yards. They're untrue Christians, and so they give the rest of us a bad name.

About Catholics: Personally, I've read a lot of stuff that says that being Catholic is a counterfeit Christianity and well, to all you Catholics, maybe you should read up on those. I've got a Catholic friend I've tried to convert but she won't listen. It's probably morally safer to not be Catholic, but truly, if it's in the heart and you've got your priorities straight and everything, you'll probably go to heaven.

About gays: I'm completely anti-gay but I'll still be your friend. How? Because I know that being gay is a sin. However, the sin does not define you. Remember Kabuki? I used to talk with him a lot. Nowadays, since I became disillusioned with the whole lifestyle, never. So just remember: I'm not one of those Christians that walk around screaming that everybody is going to go to hell.

About atheists and nonbelievers: Agnostics. Ugh. I used to be confused about the difference between agnostics and atheists. They both don't believe in God, so what's the difference? Well, atheists are truly "no way Jose" and agnostic is "I'm too pussy to make my mind up about religion so I'll just say I doubt or don't know." Atheism is pretty bad. I mean, come on, you're screwing yourself either way. If there's no God, then everybody loses and it doesn't matter, but you don't think there is one so you're dooming yourself to no afterlife. If there is a God, you spent your life disbeliever and you're dooming yourself to an afterlife in hell. Wouldn't you rather die believing then dying not? You have a better chance of not spending your life in hell But I'll still be your friend, remember that. I know it sounds too good to be true, but honestly, whatever "Christian" people you thought you knew that were hateful probably weren't Christian at all. At least, not truly. Remember, you have to follow the *true* teachings, not just every Sunday or whenever it's convenient.

...That's a pretty long post for me. I guess it's because I know you guys are mature. Or I hope you guys are mature. Same thing.

Remember, if you want to talk to me, get me on an instant messanger.

LightFang out.

I'm not really that mature...but I try to act like it...

Btw, I'm in the catagory of "No way Jose." The reason I don't belive in God is because it just seems way way way too...erm...well...to me it seems impossible. Lots of things today can be proven with science and we'll definitely have all the answers unless we blow ourselves up before we get the chance. Religion just seems far too...if you'll excuse me for stealing this phrase Mugi, old fashioned. I don't mind if there's an afterlife or not...so long as my children live well...if I ever have any of course. =^.^=

Ooh, that topic set me off. Don't worry, no personal attacks shall be done...

Warning: Don't read if you're atheist and proud or else you will feel like it's a personal attack. Don't read if you don't like thinking either. I don't expect to convert anybody at all, but I expect you guys to think and maybe examine your lives a little bit more. Or else that's putting too much faith in your moral structure/my ability to write/random luck.

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Science is as much a religion as anything else. Try to prove otherwise and you won't be able to...

It takes just as much faith to believe that there is a God as to believe that there is no God. So at least you've made up your mind.

"Oh im cool im atheist"..."Religion blinds, it's stupid" "Science rocks" What they don't get is that science is a religion too...

Nonbelivers tend to believe the scientific results to be true no matter what... as if they conducted the experiment themselves. So... they trust those science manuscripts that doesn't that have same credentials as the Bible?

"The Bible is not scientifically proven."

And they say things like "Possibility! Even though it's stupid and an incredibly long shot it's still possible! :O"

Well, it's also possible that the scientists bullshitted you.

You do realize that the media, government, and science have covered their asses throughout history. And yet God has never covered his ass, because he doesn't need to. So how does this work?

Example: atomic bomb. People were like, "Wtf? Does that even exist? Lol." And then: Manhatten Project. Newtonian physics have been disproven (or rendered obsolete or whatever). There are so many faults with science...and yet God says "Dude, I'm right. I was always right. And I will always be right."

And in either case...Atheist = Two way screwing while Christian = Don't get screwed. It's either win-win or lose-lose. I CHOOSE...to lose. It makes no sense! D:

A lot of atheists are also in love with the world.

It's like...a kid goes to Disneyland and he sees the entrance with balloons, costumed people, and stuff, so he hangs around there. The dad goes "Dude, let's go in!" and the kid goes "No, I like it here." So then the dad goes, "I paid 50 bucks so u can get into Disneyland and you're just going to hang around the entrance?"

50 bucks = Jesus. And yes, it's not a perfect analogy, so don't be like other atheists and pick out little inconsistencies with "the big picture" beacuse it's an analogy and it's basically to illustrate a certain point.

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Written with the help of saved logs of a friend chatting about religion. In real life.

I hate science personally...least the classes I did.

Yes, it's absolutly true that the scientists could be...erm...lieing to us. Though that just doesn't cross my mind at all. I don't belive EVERYTHING they say. If I did, I'd be pretty dumb. ^^

And a big yes on the government hiding stuff...lots of people knows that the government hides stuff from us...for example...like with what happened in Rosewell? Man, hope the government doesn't like...find me and force me to say that aliens don't exist...but anywho, why do you think the government would hide such a thing? Some were excited that there was life somewhere out there in the universe...others were like... "THAT CAN'T BE TRUE!!! IT JUST CAN'T! WE WERE CREATED BY GOD'S HANDS AND HE LOOKS OVER US! HOW COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE ANOTHER PLANET WITH LIFE?!" Geez...that sounds like bashing...but anywho, many...many people felt that way. Wish I could ask my grandma again for what her reaction, but she got alzheimers and can't remember anything anymore...

But that was HER reaction and her mothers. According to her, her mom was about to commit suicide until the radio person or whatever said it was a hoax. So...if a woman with three children was willing to commit suicide and leave her children behind cause of religion...imagine the country.

By the way, I don't exactly love the world...I DO love it's beauty or whatever is left in the parts of New York I live in...

As for the God proving himself thing...maybe the reason why he doesn't prove himself is because he doesn't exist to be able to prove himself...?

God doesn't *need* to prove himself because then it would be proof and there would be no room for faith. Ooh, bet you didn't see that angle.

Do aliens exist? Once again, you can't listen to the outspoken (but wrong) crazy people, you have to think about if they are really Christian and taking the message to heart.

A. They can't have been true Christians. Suicide is a sin. Therefore they would be damning themselves to hell. Interesting note: Suicide is probably the only sin that can never be forgiven. Once you're dead, you can't repay your sins :O

B. Who says aliens don't exist? Aliens could exist. Bible says nothing about aliens, therefore they may or may not exist. QED.

I like science, actually. It explains a lot of things around me. And yet, I know, 50 or so years later, some new theory is going to come around and people will go "Haha, those barbarians in the year 2000. They believed in protons, electrons, and neutrons, but now we have X, Y, and Q, so haha we're so smart."

And the cycle continues...

But seriously, the double damning stuff. Atheists are screwed either way, have fun.

I knew that angle was comming. I usually belive in something when I see it...I'm just that kind of person. Yeah I used to belive in God and stuff when I was little...when I first entered my depression, I prayed my butt off for help...things only got worse and worse after that...it got better once I left my faith behind me though...so that was good. It was just one day I woke up and said, "Hmm...no one is really helping me get through this...not even God...isn't he like...supposed to help those in need, wish it, try to, and ask for it? Meh...fine...I'll get through it myself." ^.^

Btw, you just renamed of the electrons but no way added or subtracted from those names...just stating that before I continue since I just had a little twitch bout that one... =^.^=

I can't belive in what the bibleS say...there's more than one bible...and other types of literature with different belifes and such...with so many, which one IS the truth anyway? Besides, I'm happy enough with the life I got ahead of me. Why do I care what happens to me AFTER I die? I can't really accomplish anything after death for my family...I'd just be...sitting there...watching them...to me, that's pretty much the same thing as nothing as a blank after death...I just wanna have a good life...live it...and make the future better for the next generation...THAT'S what we as humans should be working for...In my opinion anyway. I seek no rewards after I die and get buried. My reward is that, hopefully my kids will be more successful than me in everyway and never have to go through what I have. =^.^=

Haven't you heard the saying "God helps those who help themselves?"

From deep inside the heart...when prayer comes...God answers. As in out loud. You'll have to trust me on this one. Call it crazy, but can you prove it?

See, the problem with your angle is that it's wrong :O

After death...you get to go to this place called "Heaven" which is very gangster and happy like and everything.

Now, how can we know conclusively what's right and what's not? We can't. Everything can be rationalized and explained away if you won't open your mind.

But anyways...I would be Muslim, for example, if a Muslim parted the Red Sea, but one didn't, so...

Electrons? I'm taking chemistry, I don't want to deal with science any more than I have to.

Ugh, science. It's not the answer to every freaking problem out there! You scientists are never going to find a "God" equation because science itself isn't perfect!

All your theories keep changing...

And also, a little proof about the Bible: Prove it's false! :O

Example: Let's say we take the argument "lol you guys weren't there at creation so therefore yo guys make shiz up"

Biology: Cells somehow evolved by themselves to have the molecular structures needed to sustain life. Cell structure evolved, oh, let's say, over 500 million years ago according to the *current* theory. (that means it's going to change and there will be some new half assed explaination). It was written, at most, 200 years ago.

Bible was written by apostles with the guidance of the holy spirit. Aka...at maximum, 20 years after Jesus died. Not hundreds of years.

Isn't it interesting how the Bible (t3h Christian one) is a multiple author book? It was written by many authors spanning different continents speaking different languages, and yet somehow...just somehow...when put together, it tells the story of the whole world (Beginning = Genesis and Ending = Revelations). And there are no gaps, no contradictions, nothing at all.

"But what if it changed?!?!" you say. Well...

A. Nobody would mess around with this book. Trust me. If you saw Jesus, and you were a monk, there is no way in hell you would screw around with the book. Trust me, instead of editing it, they'd just make a new one and get all credit XD

B. If it really is all a conspiracy, how would you, an insignificant being, know?

"They might have changed it! There's a possibility it's a conspiracy!"

Yeah. There's also a probability that you're wrong.

Some atheists say that Jesus wasn't a person. Some say he was, but he was just a guy. All true Christians say that Jesus was real. Which group has more disrepencies now? O:

And in either case, things getting better when you decided to stop believing isn't really proof of his nonexistance, since you saying anything should, in your model, not have any effect on anything and therefore is completely irrelevent.

Yes, I HAVE heard that saying...I've heard it FAR too many times and it still doesn't make any sense at all. If I'm helping myself, why would he help me then if by the time I've helped myself I no longer require the help that God is attempting to give me...does it mean that because I've helped myself that God in some way or form has helped me...? Help doesn't really work that way last time I checked...

For example, I see my friend struggling with a couch and is trying to move it up on his second story deck from his backyard...after awhile, he finally manages to get it up there...after he's done...I go up to him and ask him, "Did I help you at all?" He'd probably hate me for the rest of the day...or a backyard wrestling friend, punch me if the face and would start a hardcore match right there.

Can you really prove that God helps you? ^.^

As for Jesus...well...I belive he existed...no doubt about that...in my opinion anyway. I belive he was just some guy whom took advantage of the fact that people didn't know whether or not someone was dead...they had no clue that the heart stopped after death, or the breathing...the reason many mistakes have happened and people were buried alive meanwhile...they were sleeping...now that's a rude awakening... =^.^=

As for the Red Sea thing, I don't think that Moses literally parted the Red Sea...that area has many droughts and does leave..."passage ways" in which you are literally able to cross the Red Sea. The Romans were screwed cause they used chariots...chariots in mud...now these things are heavy...and were really slow in mud...which is why their pursuit really sucked and the Jews were able to cross before the water flooded the passage killing the insanely slow Roman pursuers.

As for heaven...umm...I still stand by what I said...I'm not happy unless I'm with my family...even if my dream world were to come true, it be nothing without my family physically there...and if they WERE there some how but they aren't dead, then it just be a lie, now wouldn't it?

As with science, theories change cause of studies...least we're trying to find the answers...it might not be able to solve everything...but if we live long enough, we'd probably be able to figure out a hell of a lot of things. Hypothosis have to come...but they test it...if it's not true, it's thrown out...study study study...you might not get ALL the answers...but you could still get pretty high up there. =^.^=

As for the theory of evolution...eh...I was never sure about that...but it sure beats the "explaination" the bible has. And about contradictions, my teacher back at job corps did talk about the bible and the MANY contradictions it contains when he was speaking to the dental instructor at dinner. I wasn't IN the conversation, but listening to it. I'm trying to remember what they had said, so for now, I'll hit the submit button.

One more thing, after rejecting help from God, don't you think he'd be like..."Oh alright...if you got the situation under control, then it's all good." Anywho, if he DID help me, he was a little bit late with the helping hand.

A bout Catholosism. It IS christianity the only differance is Christianity has learned to "Lighten up" Ina way and start haveing a more open mind about the world ond other beleifs.

Catholics are still holding true to some of the older beleafs such as Anti-gay and such.

I;m not saying this to be a personal attack But In all honesty I really do not beleave that saying your anti gay/bi because its in the bible is a valad reason for me. I;m sorry but Because alot of my experiances with Christain based religions were negative I cannot see how someone validates themselfes because its written in a bible

I'll start with Ray because it's easier to write about Catholics vs. Christian and stuff.

Your experiences with "Christian based religions". I thought there was only one :O

But anyways...how can I validate myself? What would be a "good" reason in your eyes? If I take the Bible as true, it's concrete fact, yeah? So I would be justified (and I do think so).

However, otherwise, it's just a matter of opinion. And you learned in third grade that you can't prove an opinion right or wrong. QED.

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Can I prove that God helps me? No. I have a feeling he did, a sort of "well, when I converted, stuff happened," but then I can't prove it really did happen to me. Heck, you can't even prove I'm not a robot, and I can't prove that you're not. There is no such thing as a 100% proof of these kinds of things because that would leave no room for, once again, faith.

But I'll give you my word: I used to be atheist. When I converted, it was like...magic. And it still is.

About God helping those who help themselves: In the book of Judges, there was this great soldier guy named Gideon. He took 300 men and won a great victory. And you know what his battle cry was? It was "The sword of the Lord and Gideon." Not just the Lord, and not just Gideon, but both, together, fused. So God does help those who help themselves in some ways: God isn't going to do much through you if you don't do much through yourself. You can't just sit there and go "Alright God, do it for me." Preachers don't get up there and wait for God to give them something to say, you know?

I just want to quote myself again.

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Isn't it interesting how the Bible (t3h Christian one) is a multiple author book? It was written by many authors spanning different continents speaking different languages, and yet somehow...just somehow...when put together, it tells the story of the whole world (Beginning = Genesis and Ending = Revelations). And there are no gaps, no contradictions, nothing at all.

"But what if it changed?!?!" you say. Well...

A. Nobody would mess around with this book. Trust me. If you saw Jesus, and you were a monk, there is no way in hell you would screw around with the book. Trust me, instead of editing it, they'd just make a new one and get all credit XD

B. If it really is all a conspiracy, how would you, an insignificant being, know?

"They might have changed it! There's a possibility it's a conspiracy!"

Yeah. There's also a probability that you're wrong.

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Also, consider this: Bible was written like 5000 years ago back when propaganda and fake bs writing didn't exist. People had 5000 years to pwn the Bible.

5000 years later: Random dude: "Bible sucks, here's my new crap!" Everybody else: "ooo he must be right!"

It just amazes me how people think hell is just a cool place to be, you know? I mean, in heaven, it's like...I can't even describe it. It's just complete spiritual bliss. And how you could damn yourself to not experiencing that either way is just...I don't know.

I know I'm not a robot cause I've seen my insides before...they're like a greyish pink. XD

About the helping of God thing...once again...I stick to what I said cause while I was still...hmm...with God so to speak...I DID try to help myself...though there was like...no help what so ever. So when I lost my faith and decided to help myself. When I left my Catholic faith it was like magic...sorta like when you converted TO a religion. So that's pretty null and void. I've never felt more free nor so happy to finally find some happiness in life.

And I want to return towards the existance of life thing...in the bible, doesn't it say that God has created Adam and Eve and all the animals on the world? It talked of tigers, snakes and other animals of our time...yet, they talk of nothing of the dinosaurs and especially not about primates that we humans, evolved from.

And one definite reason I don't belive in God is how is it even a possibility that one all knowing and powerful being could possibly create the universe? That's a little too much power for one being to control...power = corruption...everything is capable of being corrupted. Even gods.

And you're starting to sound like my mom with the damning thing...sorta creepy. Once again...I won't be happy unless I am with my family...I hardly care how joyous or happy heaven is supposed to be. What could they possibly have up there (in the sky like it was originally thought...? Then we already surpassed heaven.) that could make me happy? When I'm happy, I'm usually with my family and friends...no family or friends, I'm pretty depressed most of the time.

And AGAIN I repeat...however much I hate repeating myself, I'd be happy if I set the bar of success for my future generation...I could die happily. Note: HAPPILY! And I'm starting to think you think that I'm gonna be afraid when it's my time for death? I can honestly say that I'm not afraid. Twice I was in big car accidents and once I've been hit by a car. Over three times in this short life I've faced death and shruged. I don't care if I go...if I go, I go. My only regret is that I've done nothing for the future generation.

If there IS an afterlife then cool...that's a little bonus...I'd definitely wouldn't want to last forever though...I'd ask for like a mortal lifetime before I just fall asleep forever...no dreams or nothing, just like...blank. And there really is no reason to simply damn someone to hell just because they don't belive. So long as they were good and lived a good life just like he wanted right? So long as his will or something was carried out, why should he care whether or not that person belives in him? If anything, he should be impressed that a human was able to live such a fulfilled life without his spiritual aid...no?

It is my belife that humans created God...cause humans before the actual almighty being God have created many gods. If they were able to create many gods then it is absolutely possible that people can create one god. Much much much easier to create one god than many. "There's one god who knows everything, created everything and rules everything, now don't question him." Easier to put God as the reason for everything than explain everything. Which many people have done over the years and still do today...which I find that wrong...but it happens.

As for the bible and many stories, according to the conversation between my hotel/motel teacher and the dental teacher, they were agreeing with each other with how many contradictions there were in the Christian bible. They are both of Christian faith and I'm very sure my teacher read the bible a heck of a lot and am pretty sure the dental teacher has done the same...judging by how many passages each of them were throwing out there which made me wonder, "Whoa, wonder what their wives think of them...giving more attention to a book than them." (Was jokingly of course and made me laugh inside.) =^.^=

the thing is and this is a fact Catholosism, Baptist, Jahova's witness, Mormans are ALL branched from Christainity thats all i ment really

As for propaganda, which I forgot to mention...back then people belived almost anything that was written down that there was no need for propaganda...the people always want a leader to guide them. Today is no different in my opinion...I'm not saying that we don't need a leader, but what if America simply didn't have a president and decided to be ruled by God? I really don't think God would be a good leader if he even did do something...

One thing is for sure God gave mankind free will meaning if god was to be a leader he or she would let us do what we thought was best and not interfear

Ray wrote:

One thing is for sure God gave mankind free will meaning if god was to be a leader he or she would let us do what we thought was best and not interfear

Which is what happened in the garden of eden, He gave us that, than we fucked up and ate an apple off the tree of life, Our choice out of Free Will , Because some stupid serpant told us it would make us like gods.

He has been rather quiet as of the last 2,000 years. Not since Christ was here, he hasn't really done anything. It's all in his plans though, not our.

He gave us freewill because I think he found the Angels that obeyed his every word, got quite boring to him.

tis true although most will not admit watching a species wioth free will is more entertaining than watching a species who obeys every word you comand

Ray wrote:

One thing is for sure God gave mankind free will meaning if god was to be a leader he or she would let us do what we thought was best and not interfear

True...true...think it would be pretty...umm...interesting...if God were our president.

hmmm that could be debateable because well think about it this way

Mankind has always feared strong men if we had an omnipotent beeing as a prezadent of ANY country we as humans will soon grow fearsom of him/her and soon rebel a flaw mankind usally shows

THAT'S the interesting part of it. ^.^

An entire country vs God...sounds like to me a Final Fantasy story. XD

tis true lets face it in alot of rpg games (Not JUST final Fantasy) theres always a villan who wants to be Imortalized or god like in every way

Yes it IS true...it VERY true! Like I said before, power usually leads to corruption.

I own a few games where the savior (Someone who was deeply devoted to god and his teachings) or a whole religion was turned evil witch really made me think

Breath of Fire 2 had the saint evans religion where a demon used the powers of the peoples prayers and faith to become stronger.

Final Fantasy Tactics Had the Zodiac stones where if they were held by a person of good they grant miricales But a person of evil turned him into a Lucavi (Devil) spawn.

Breath of Fire 4 also had religious context used for evil (The first emperor of the west whom you do control was a god but soon turned "evil because of what he saw in mankind)

I;m not saying religion is bad because we all need something to beleave in and all its just that every religion has sinned and few have actually tried to repent for their sins

Not up for four pages of stuff, so I'll just skip to posting.

I'm a "soft" atheist...don't believe in any gods, but don't believe that the existence of gods is entirely impossible. To be honest, I like religion, in general. I'd much rather someone be religious and open to the bigger questions of life than just get up every day until they die and never wonder about anything beyond the mundane. An "angry" atheist is as infuriating to me as your average fundie.

I originally was a Christian by "default"...born to a liberal, non-denominational, Christian family, idly recognized the basic "tenets" of the thing, though, to be honest, the few times I ever went to church made me uncomfortable...and, in the end, a few years ago I went, "But I don't really believe any of it." I spent a while reading just about any religious material I could get my hands on, from the Old and New Testement to Buddhist doctrine to the Satanic Bible...and, in the end, I came out deciding I still didn't really believe any of it. I've yet to see a logical reason to believe in God, let alone any other religious doctrine.

If someone could offer a logically valid proof of God or reincarnation or what have you, I'd go over it...and, if I couldn't refute it, I'd accept it. But the simple fact is that no one's done it yet. If you want to believe in spite of that, go for it. There's no law that says that all of our beliefs have to be logical. I just can't bring myself to...nor do I particularly want to.

As for the gay issue...I'm gay. I didn't realize it until after my entire religious "quest", though, so it wasn't an issue in my dropping the Christian label I'd sported. As far as I'm concerned, people have the right to be anti-gay if they want to...I think it's an illogical position that does more harm than good, often misrepresents the facts, and hurts kind, decent people...but you have the right to believe what you believe. (Though, I've heard some really good arguments against homosexuality in general being considered a sin in the Bible. There are a few obvious condemnations, but there are also verses that have cultural ambiguity that hasn't carried over.)

I just wish people wouldn't try to make their beliefs law. That's my general position when it comes to religion. If you think that my having sex with men means I'm going to Hell, have fun. If you think my not wanting to pray or read the Bible as a literally or historically true text is evil, have fun. The list goes on...believe what you want but don't force what you believe is morally correct action onto others.

And, as for a child's being gay disappointing their parents...I suppose for those with deep-seeded biases against homosexuality, it would be. But, for those that don't, I don't see why it would. My mother was looking forward to a beautiful wife and grandkids, and now she's looking forward to a handsome husband and grandkids, adopted or whatever else have you.

in all honesty heres a few personal quotes I've used in a chat with a few convos with teen parents in my school:

1) "Ummm worrying if my kid is gonna be gay or straight is the lowest thing on my worry list."

2) "Jeeze your kids not even a year old and your already trying to potty train him? just because YOU dislike changeing diapers is no reason to stress out the kid"

3) "Religion is good and all don't get me wrong everyone is entitled to their beleafes However I'm not one who can serve a religion that requires me to change who I am."

4) "I'm a wiccan/Buddest Thanks I'm quite happy with my choise"

Meh. What was the classic thing? "Although we have differing opinions, I still respect yours."

As completely corny and sarcastic as it sounds...it's true. =P Maybe being a non-fanatic gives you that, I don't know.

Fundie? Nobody will tell me what a fundamentalist is! I don't get it...what's the difference? Somebody's got to tell me =P

Teen parents. Ah...probably not the best people to ask for a general opinion, you know? They probably had their priorities messed up by even having sex outside of marriage and doing that stuff and being loaded with a kid as a teen...but then, that's what I think, you know?